Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

the_bluester
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby the_bluester » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:20 pm

I am just about ready to set fire to this car!

The build is the E11 off my own race car (HR31 Skyline) which is up for an ECU upgrade. Now fully wired into an E36 318IS. The issue I am having appears to be down to the inductive triggers. The car uses the Motronic 60-2 + Cam home trigger pattern. I wired both triggers the same way (BMW for some reason has the crank and cam sensors wired in opposing polarities)

The problem is I can not get the bugger to trigger. With much messing around I got it apparently triggering reliably and with a regular flash of the timing light on #1 plug lead every fourth compression. All good, enable the injectors, no go. Check the timing light, no spark! I have danced that dance a couple of times.

The trigger diagnostic does look slightly odd to me. When I get gain and filter settings that seem to be reliable at crank, I get alternating triggers since last home of 57 and 117, not patchy, just alternating between the two. I can not see how it can do that. Firstly I would expect 116 triggers between home signals (Or do the two missing teeth get counted by the ECU as a trigger?) but I can not see where it gets 57 from on the alternate cycles. I expected it to need rising edge triggering with the sensors arranges as I have done but I get no reliable triggers at all that way.

Anyone have an advice on where the issue might be? How I wish they fitted hall effect triggers to these things!

iceman_n
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:14 am

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 MBW M42 engine.

Postby iceman_n » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:24 pm

if you post an image with the trigger and crank sensor on TDC, 1st cylinder, someone can help you figure the correct trigger angle and offset...
also are you sure about the polarity of the crank and cam sensors ? falling or rising ?

also you can try first to fire up the engine just using only the crank sensor, with wasted spark and batch mode...if it fires up then you try to enable the cam sensor to use the direct fire and sequential injection...or you can stay on wasted spark and batch mode and use the cam sensor only for the variable camshafts (vanos) reference...

the_bluester
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 MBW M42 engine.

Postby the_bluester » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:15 am

I am stuck there, my oscilloscope is too old to be a storage model (It truly is a CRO, complete with Cathode Ray tube!) The trigger angle has been pretty well documented by others already here http://www.m42club.com/forum/index.php?topic=18999.0 so I was starting with 114 degrees, the few flashes I got out of the timing light it appeared to be in the ballpark, a bit advanced but perhaps what I would expect if it was using the wrong trigger edge.

I will have another crack tonight after changing to rising edge, 60-2 without cam home, wasted spark (Will it do wasted spark with individual coils? fitted, firing 1-4 and 2-3 together?) and batch injection. At least if I can start it I wont be so tempted to set fire to it. If I can get it idling I will be able to get a decent view of the trigger waveforms to sort out the trigger edge, which should be set to rising edge based on other information I have found. But if I set the crank trigger to rising edge I can not get it to trigger regardless of gain or filter settings. Time to pull the plugs out to start with so I get longer out of the battery. I don't get much time before I am done for the night with two flat batteries.

the_bluester
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby the_bluester » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:53 pm

I tried to respond before but for some reason the post went to moderation (Maybe because I added a link to where I had sourced information)

I am pretty comfortable that I know which trigger edge I should be using based on oscilloscope images taken by another user on a BMW forum. The problem is that when I set to rising edge trigger I loose the crank trigger and have found no combination of gain and filter that restores it at crank. I can not post up my waveform as my cro is old so it is a non storage model (Literally still a Cathode Ray scope!) I will give it a try on simple 60-2 triggering without the cam trigger in batch mode with wasted spark (Will the E11 fire 1 and 4, 2 and 3 in pairs in wasted spark or will I have to rewire the driver input?)

The only other inkling I have come up with is that perhaps there is an issue there in that my previously set pull up resistors (From the HR31 Skyline optical trigger) stay active when I switch it to reluctor mode. I will try going back to hall effect, disabling those then back to reluctor mode in case there is a coding oddity in the ECU. I am probably clutching at straws there but will have a go anyway. I will have to go to it without the plugs in the engine to make it easier to turn over, I am just eating batteries at the moment so get very little testing done per night to figure it out.

iceman_n
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:14 am

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby iceman_n » Tue Jul 19, 2016 6:21 pm

you dont need to rewire...you need to change the fuel and ignition settings to wasted spark and batch from software...also change the polarity of you crank sensor (change position to wires) and use permanently raising mode...never use again falling according to this viewtopic.php?t=12723

the_bluester
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby the_bluester » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:31 pm

Actually it is not as simple as that. I nearly cooked the coil driver doing that as the ECU seems to make the coil three and four outputs active and in no time the driver was getting hot, thankfully spotted very quickly and no damage.

Polarity of the trigger signal is all relative to how they are wired. I wired them from scratch, but what I will need to do later is determine if the slope leading into the missed teeth is rising or falling. A job for later when it is running and I can get a full cycle of the trigger waveform on my cro (if I had some spare budget I would buy a modern storage scope so I could get the waveform nailed down at cranking speeds)

After much messing around tonight I have worked out the the problem is on the HT side of things, either the cars coils are cactus (Possible, they are the originals on the car) or they require a higher drive current than the Haltech branded (Huco?) coil drivers limit to. I hooked the timing light up over the four coil primary output wires from the driver and bingo, regular flashes of the timing light in time with each compression stroke. Put it on a plug lead, nothing! Got the same result by putting a grounded spark plug in the end of an ignition lead and cranking it, no spark. I bodge wired a spare HEC17 ignition coil to one coil connector and boom, spark!

the_bluester
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby the_bluester » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:29 pm

A further question for anyone who may know.

I have an old Bosch HEC716 ignition coil from a previous installation (An ancient E6A) and that proved out that the issue appears to be coils that require a higher drive current than the Haltech module will provide. Is the current Bosch HEC715 a suitable coil to be driven off the Haltech OEM style ignite? I wont link to it here as that seems to have made a previous post by me today disappear into moderation land, but it is the one listed on the Haltech store under "HT-020006 Quad Channel Igniter (DUMB)"

Hlatech do not appear to list any coils on the web store any more as suitable for normal igniters. They are either for the Haltech HPI modules, CDI or have inbuilt drivers.

iceman_n
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:14 am

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby iceman_n » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:11 am

the_bluester wrote:Actually it is not as simple as that. I nearly cooked the coil driver doing that as the ECU seems to make the coil three and four outputs active and in no time the driver was getting hot, thankfully spotted very quickly and no damage.

Polarity of the trigger signal is all relative to how they are wired. I wired them from scratch, but what I will need to do later is determine if the slope leading into the missed teeth is rising or falling. A job for later when it is running and I can get a full cycle of the trigger waveform on my cro (if I had some spare budget I would buy a modern storage scope so I could get the waveform nailed down at cranking speeds)


something is going wrong with the ecu or the wiring...i dont know...its not normal to change to wasted spark and your coil drive been cooked...
also about polarity, thats what i am saying you must verify if it is raising or falling first of all and no later....
change the wiring in that way that you only use rising edge on software

the_bluester
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby the_bluester » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:49 am

What I am saying there is that rising or falling edge in the software is not an issue in itself, it needs to be set to match the way the sensors are wired. If the sensor wiring was reversed in the thread you linked, he would need to set to falling edge as the waveform would be reversed.

There are dire warnings in the manual about getting the ignition setup right in the software before connecting coil drivers or damage to them is likely. I am guessing that is why. Turn it to wasted spark and the module plus coils three and four warm up, back to sequential, no issue.

The fact that I have coil primary current that will trigger the timing light in exactly the pattern I should expect but no spark says a lot I think.

the_bluester
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Re: Trigger issue, E11V2 on E36 BMW M42 engine.

Postby the_bluester » Thu Jul 21, 2016 12:04 pm

Incidentally, the sensor in this car is the same diameter as the Honewell hall effect sensors (but shorter so I need to turn up an adapter to get the spacing right) so I plan to buy one of the high speed Honeywell sensors and convert the 60-2 trigger to a hall effect device so I get a nice clean signal without having to mess around with gain and filter settings. With the lower trigger rate I am less concerned about the cam home signal.


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