E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

kaptainballistik
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E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:39 am

EDIT: Ive gone with Subaru coil on plug... But they are overheating...

Morning.

This all pertains to a RX2 Rallycar. Its the "Retired" car so its all about giggles and stupidity.

Because I'm finally over using a Microtech Digi 2 for my Ignition and a Haltech E6R for the fuel (The Ignition side of the Haltech E6R just did not handle competition, Popped apex seals... but was fine on the street) , I have splurged and I now have a E6S-8 for the simple fact it was $220! The e6R is living on fitted to the families Series 2 RX7 fitted with leftover development RX2 EFI bits..

But I digress.

At the moment I'm struggling with setting up the Coil on plug modules (Suzuki Vitara units, Mitsubishi 33410-77e2) and I can not seem to find any data on them... Like dwell and if they are rising or falling trigger. I have the wiring diagram for them so they are wired in. Using a Incandesant noid light the ECU is sending signals for the ignition and clicking the injectors when you spin the CAS (and the ECU is seeing all the sensors) so the computer seems fine.

The issue is I cant seem to find the settings I need for the Haltech to fire the coils....... would it be Constant charge, 1.8 ms dwell,
or direct fire: Rising or falling edge.. using the default 30% charge time settings?

Yes, I can go LS1 coils, but then its not coil on plug is it! (and coil on plug looks funky, especially using a Perspex mount plate), at a pinch I can use Subaru STi 2006 Plug on coils. But due to things like Power steering Pumps the Suzuki coils fit better.

Worse case is use the M&S igniter module and Bosch 715 coils... But that's no challenge! (tested and works)

kaptainballistik
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Re: E6S Direct fire issue with Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:48 am

Smart igniter on the Coilpacks.. so constant duty is required.

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Peterson
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Re: E6S Direct fire issue with Suzuki coils.

Postby Peterson » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:48 pm

I don't know how much of a help would be but at my setup (no rotary engine tho) I am using Mercury's marine IGN-1A coils with in built igniters (smart coils) at wasted spark configuration and they work flawlessly! Settings for them are constant charge,falling edge output 3ms base dwell (I am running mine at 3.5ms).Mr Chris Ludwig or LMS689 in here provided me back then the settings and he deal's with rotary engines as far tuning so he has the knowledge to advice you better than me.cheers.

kaptainballistik
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:46 am

Re: E6S Direct fire issue with Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Fri Mar 11, 2016 8:36 am

Hmm, that may shed some light on the mystery I have.

As I did the wiring totally and utterly buggered (from rebuilding the ARC Sti rallycar.....) I miswired one coil so the ground and trigger were combined.

And stuff me... its the only one that fired! I don't get it either.... if the coils trigger when they get pulled low that sort of makes sense...

( yes, I don't know how I managed mis-wiring the car like that.... we sat there looking at each other and decided to quit for the night!)

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Peterson
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Re: E6S Direct fire issue with Suzuki coils.

Postby Peterson » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:34 pm

kaptainballistik wrote:
( yes, I don't know how I managed mis-wiring the car like that.... we sat there looking at each other and decided to quit for the night!)

Don't feel bad about it mate.if this makes you feel better I managed to fry the ass of my first ones because I mis-wired them.at least I have the honor to actually know how a blown IGN-1A coil looks and smells like.. :lol:

kaptainballistik
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:46 am

Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:19 pm

So I'm going for Subaru Coil on Plug units as I could actually get these to spark! the issue is they are getting warm......

Smart igniters I believe in the Coilpacks.. so constant duty is required... Falling trigger (-ve edge) and require 10uSec delay time by the looks of it...

The question is.... What output edge do these things use,....rising or falling edge, and what % switching do I use (Default is 30%)

The coils are getting warmer than I would like when the coils are not firing so I think it's a setting issue.

But the settings I'm finding are dictating a dwell signal which implies a dumb igniter..... and NOT constant Duty... Any ideas?

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HaltechMatthew
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Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby HaltechMatthew » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:12 pm

It will depend what Subaru you got them from. The modern COP versions have internal ignitors and they will use a Constant Charge setting with Falling Edge and use around 3.5ms @ 14V.

Very few ignitors/coils these days will use a duty signal. Only older style so-called "smart" ignitors will use a duty signal. All are Falling triggered unless otherwise specified. Only some CDI units meant for points triggering like an MSD6/7/etc.. will use Rising, and some Honda distributors. Get the edge wrong and you will end up breaking it.

kaptainballistik
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Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:30 pm

They are GDB STi Coil on plug units... so they are "current"

Thanks Matthew, Ill give that a shot :)

kaptainballistik
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Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:22 am

Well, I have spark!

Its kicking but wont start......

I'm currently using a Series 4-5 RX7 CAS,

Trigger angle is 60 BTDC,
trigger type is multitooth, 24 teeth
trigger edge is falling
tooth offset is 3
(straight from the "Hitman's" page)
spark mode is direct fire.
output is constant charge
coil charge time is 3.5ms
output edge is falling

inj/by is set to 1

Does that look right? Leading coils are set for waste spark.

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HaltechMatthew
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Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby HaltechMatthew » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:02 am

I am Hitman. :mrgreen:

Tooth Offset of 3 was done WAY back in the day when people did not have a clue what they were doing, and it was easier to ask people to point the 2-tooth pickup at the screw holes for the CAS cover. There also used to be a restriction on what the tooth offset number could be.
In the OEM location the offset should be 10, the same as for any newer ECUs up to the Platinum Sport.

kaptainballistik
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:46 am

Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Tue Mar 29, 2016 10:13 am

Sweet

I'll give that a go.

I was wondering if you were still around!! ( Its been that long since I've played with this car!)

kaptainballistik
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:46 am

Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:19 am

So when I set the offset to 10 the ECU starts self triggering and the injectors go nuts...

Something tells me the trigger wiring has a break in it somewhere.......

kaptainballistik
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:46 am

Re: E6S Direct fire issue with STi Coil on Plug /Suzuki coils.

Postby kaptainballistik » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:50 pm

So update.

Phantom triggering.... Make sure BOTH ECU and loom grounds are bolted to ground! Also means you don't see an erratic rpm signal as you crank.....

So once that was sorted (I'm blaming working on the car at 11 pm...) then it was setting the CAS up.

Tried 10 and 11 for the offset and the car would not trigger the coils or injectors.

the car worked at 5 offset but as my timing light had died (convenient) I set the offset to 3 and put the CAS to 1/7 o'clock...

Set timing lock (trailing coils removed)

No start but it backfired and kicked. Then I realised the cold enrichment and prime maps were not tweaked, so I increased the priming map (tomorrow's job is to transfer the correction settings from the old maps... I forgot to do it!!!)

Set CAS to just under max advance and he kicked into life and settled to a high but healthy idle. Turned off timing check and the car seemed happy at idle and revved well. It seemed to run when set to 11/5 pm (taking the CAS bolt holes as 12/6 pm)

So beats me why the ECU won't work with a 10 offset.

Matt, is leaving the offset at 3 any issue or should I try for 5 ( I'm presuming the ECU can only retard for those 3 teeth worth of time....)

And there is a injection phasing correction map..... I'll research that and see what needs to be done on that and give it a crack before I ask on that!

I think there is something about that in the e6r so I'll check that at the same time as the correction maps


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