Ford 351 Cleveland first start idle tune

toughxc
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:38 pm

Ford 351 Cleveland first start idle tune

Postby toughxc » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:44 pm

I've just got the car ready and have been working on getting the car started and idling,I'm having some trouble I have managed o get it idle once, but I haven't reproduced that yet.

I've included the prime correction map, should I leave this off initially? I found it helped initially to get the car to run.

If you have a look at the e11 section and my build thread you can see a clip when it was idling and my setup, I'm more curious how I should go about the idle start up tuning, do I just work in the 0 rpm 2d map and when she is almost firing duplicate the times in the 500 rpm map and same again with the 1000 etc?
When working the maps I've been using pg up and down until close then finer movements with the up and down arrows.
But it's not working so wondering how other people go about it?

I wished I'd saved that map it was idling with before I messed with it are well live and learn.

5.8 lt
250 cc injectors
Coil on plug (ls1 coils)
Timing locked at 10 deg

Appreciate any help.

Cheers
Dave

toughxc
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:38 pm

Re: Ford 351 Cleveland first start idle tune

Postby toughxc » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:53 pm

I thought id add my last update form my build thread in the E 11 section, you can see below where i ended up with the starting idle map.

If any one has some more input around the logged data and things i should be looking at please pipe up.

---------------------------------------------

I had a good day today, started by removing and cleaning the spark plugs, re-installing them, to do this i have to remove the coils off the rocker covers only adds a extra 10-15 minutes to the task.

I spent some time using a spreadsheet which calculates the injector times for a brand new map. This gave me a really good starting point, i also looked at the prime map and the zero throttle map, these both made a huge difference, the zero throttle map helps when the idle vacuum is all over the place, giving the injector time by rpm not load up to 2000 rpm. The prime map is used for the first cycle of the injectors when you start cranking, a much longer duty cycle then you can get from the load maps.

So with these maps now included and my new injection times, i was able to start the car, initially i managed to get the car to sit around 1200-1500 rpm, refer to video below

Image

I then sat there for a while while i tried to setting down the idle but the car cleaned itself out and decided to creep up to 3000 rpm, refer to video below

Image

I then tried to wind back the butterflies to get the idle down, refer to video below

Image

I then shut her down, was making way too many funky noises. i was actually thinking Im going to damage the engine for sure.

I then tried to identify the air leaks which i definitely have around the manifold, there are some obvious around the throttle bodies ( i didn't use a gasket so not surprised haha) i closed up the butterflies a little so i could get it to idle lower, refer to video below

Image

So it was obvious i had a trigger issue with all the back fireing and carry on I managed to get some data from the logger also, i managed to log data or take a vid i didn't manage to do both on the same run. So i analyzed the data I had and you can see the issues.

If you look at the screen dumps of the logged data below

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You can see the grey line in the last 4 pictures and the legend in the top right ( the different screen shots show the different data in the top right corner), you can see the trigger is jumping around 8 then 7 then 9, this should be 8 all the time.

In the first 2 pictures you can see a steady trigger at 8, this was lower RPM, so Im assuming that RPM noise effected the trigger, either way its an issue i need to resolve.

Secondly you can see the MAP / Load line which jumps around up and down, this is why i had to use the zero throttle map to get an idle as with the load map the injection point is jumping around too much.

You can also see where i hit the throttle in the red lines and the pink lines being the injector time which also spiked, you will also notice the RPM didn't move in the right direction, i think the manifold leaks will all be having an effect on this. I am starting to wonder if the two throttle bodies are creating too much volume for the engine too?? but i'll work that out later, would be easy to remove one butterfly and block the body if need be.

You will notice all the weird noises too during the running clips, i think one of the biggest ones is the fuel injectors Im pretty sure that is what is making the tickety noise.

Ive also got an oil leak at the back of the manifold which is either the oil pressure gauge switch tree i have installed or the manifold itself.

So whats next -?

Remove the manifold and try to fix up any air leaks.
Remove the manifold and try to fix up any oil leaks.
While the manifold is off ill change out the gearbox - easier to get to the top gearbox bell-housing bolts.
I'll start my air con install while the manifold is off to make it easy to get to the firewall nuts for the heater box.
While things are off ill try to re-wire the triggers to eliminate the issue i seem to have it could be electro magnetic interference (EMI).

Ive identified a bit of wiring i want to re-do so this will be the opportunity.

Anyway, im happy that i know it will run, just need to iron out a few bugs along the way as expected. I may slip the manifold and carby back on to confirm no engine damage :( just in case but Im almost certain the weird noises are the injectors ad the back firing.

Its all positive anyway.

Cheers
Dave

toughxc
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:38 pm

Re: Ford 351 Cleveland first start idle tune

Postby toughxc » Fri Sep 27, 2013 9:15 pm

Thought id update thsi for teh next guy looking for help.

The bigest issue i had with my setup was initially teh trigggers, tehhome trigger was false triggering regularly which obviously had everything out of wak, secondly the wasted spark coils i had wired up two back teh front so 1/2 the coils sparking at the wrong time.

So a note for everyone is to go back to basics, 1 - triggers get the count since last home right, and secondly if you are getting back fires up the manifold go back and check all your wiring for the spark and the configuration.

So after these two issues were resolved, teh car fired up, as per teh manual start withy minimal fuel and raise the injector time until it runs, amazing enough it fired right up.

The wide band O2 sensor is the way to go so you can get the ratio right from the start.

Cheers
Dave

ozjado
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:28 am

Re: Ford 351 Cleveland first start idle tune

Postby ozjado » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:44 am

toughxc wrote:Thought id update thsi for teh next guy looking for help.

The bigest issue i had with my setup was initially teh trigggers, tehhome trigger was false triggering regularly which obviously had everything out of wak, secondly the wasted spark coils i had wired up two back teh front so 1/2 the coils sparking at the wrong time.

So a note for everyone is to go back to basics, 1 - triggers get the count since last home right, and secondly if you are getting back fires up the manifold go back and check all your wiring for the spark and the configuration.

So after these two issues were resolved, teh car fired up, as per teh manual start withy minimal fuel and raise the injector time until it runs, amazing enough it fired right up.

The wide band O2 sensor is the way to go so you can get the ratio right from the start.

Cheers
Dave
..

Hey dave and hello to the forum... im new hear and also very interested in putting efi lkke this on my cleveland.. i know this is an old thread but just wondering how it all turned out? Are u happy with it a few years later? If i go through with this im sure ill have a million Q's for you. Thanx in advance
Ozjado

toughxc
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:38 pm

Re: Ford 351 Cleveland first start idle tune

Postby toughxc » Thu Mar 23, 2017 6:54 pm

ozjado wrote:
toughxc wrote:Thought id update thsi for teh next guy looking for help.

The bigest issue i had with my setup was initially teh trigggers, tehhome trigger was false triggering regularly which obviously had everything out of wak, secondly the wasted spark coils i had wired up two back teh front so 1/2 the coils sparking at the wrong time.

So a note for everyone is to go back to basics, 1 - triggers get the count since last home right, and secondly if you are getting back fires up the manifold go back and check all your wiring for the spark and the configuration.

So after these two issues were resolved, teh car fired up, as per teh manual start withy minimal fuel and raise the injector time until it runs, amazing enough it fired right up.

The wide band O2 sensor is the way to go so you can get the ratio right from the start.

Cheers
Dave
..

Hey dave and hello to the forum... im new hear and also very interested in putting efi lkke this on my cleveland.. i know this is an old thread but just wondering how it all turned out? Are u happy with it a few years later? If i go through with this im sure ill have a million Q's for you. Thanx in advance
Ozjado



Hi Ozjado, yeah all worked out great been very reliable for the last few years Im actually just in the process of adding a vortech V2 to give it a bit more go. Having EFI makes that task easy come tuning.


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