Mazda FS Engine Help

[stevieturbo]

You don't need to run sequential to run four coils.
I run my V8, non sequential, coil on plug, using only a crank trigger.
You just fire the coils in pairs, exactly the same as any wasted spark system.

Dude, UNDERSTAND THIS. I AM RUNNING SEQUENTIAL AND DIRECT FIRE. PERIOD!

What works Ok for you is not my solution, No Offense, it's not your car, please don't offer workarounds that require no effort. If I wanted to do what you suggest, I would have already.

Running a Sloppy Batch fire injector system and a low tech wasted spark system is not why I spent my money on the best and most capable engine management system on the planet.

Fix it yourself then, no need to spit the dummy out at sensible suggestions to help get the car running. And many OE manufacturers still use batch fire...so it can hardly be that sloppy.
Especially on a small low powered engine...it will make litle difference.

Good luck anyway.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Sorry you feel that way, but you suggested it, I said thanks but no, then you suggested it again... I understand that you are a fan of it and it works.

I believe that it will make a bigger difference on a small motor than on a big engine, your logic is odd,small variances in fuel delivery will have a bigger effect on a small engine.

Regardless weather or not OEM uses it is irrelevant, they are always known for making the "Performance Choice" over "Cost"




PS. I assume that you were trying to tell me that "Small Low Powered" is what you think of my engine.. That's fucking AWESOME!

I suppose that my minor starting goal of 450Whp and 425 Wtq is small power for a 2.0 L.. So unless you are making more than 1300 RWHP.... I'm not impressed.


http://www.cardomain.com/ride/503974

[stevieturbo]

Ive no idea how much power I'm making. I dont have access to a dyno, so I just enjoy my car on the road, with the occasional trip to the track. It is, and always will be a road car first and foremost, and aside from perhaps a tyre change...its raced at the strip exactly as its just been driven off the road.

Ive no interest in race fuel, or any difficult to access stuff like that, so dyno/pub talk numbers mean nothing to me. Im sure I have nowhere near 1300rwhp.....although it baffles me why my car tends to perform better than many cars here in the UK that are lighter, and have claimed such power figures.
Goes to show the value of some dyno figures. Some people just want a number.....each to their own. I'd rather go fast.

I kept going on about using batch for the very simple reason..when you experience problkems, its often best to go back to basics, and keep things as simple as possible, even more so if you dont understand how all the systems etc work.
It's a tried and tested common sense approach.

[BRIAN MP5T]

The irony is that because I didn't opt out for the easy way, I actually do know how the system works and I can benefit from all the features that the Sequential System and Direct fire offer.

My car is also just a street car. The better way to explain it is that it was built to be a Go-Kart that can be driven on the road. By no means is it Low Power, but it is very light and insane to drive.

I'm sure that you can see the benefit of adding fuel only when the valve is open and thus when there is High Velocity Air entering the chamber. batch fire lets the fuel pool in the runner, and in my case, the car would idle like ass because the injectors are 3 time larger than they are supposed to be.

This isn't a debate. I really don't care if you think it's better or not. I'm not here to change your mind, I'm hear to learn, build, and tune. So unless there is something else on you mind, I think I'm done with you.

You should however Google the word "MP5T" and check out the car, it sounds like we had similar goals but different ways of getting there..

[stevieturbo]

The theory about injecting fuel when the valve is open, is debatable. Im sure I read that Motec reccomend injecting all the fuel before the valve actually opens.

Obviously the only way to determine optimum is to spend a lot of time on the dyno, playing with injector timing, at every load site, and monitoring EGT's and AFR on each cylinder. I imagine this could take quite a while.

I can only speak on behalf of some dyno operators Ive spoken to who have played with injector timing on some engines...and a lot of them have said it has made minimal difference.
Some engines will react differently to others of course, although they werent going and tuning each individualo cylinder fully.


There is no doubt that sequential should theoretically offer some benefits. Especially in terms of emissions and perhaps economy.....and if you are running a single large injector per cylinder. But as to whether more power etc is made available....I'd guess the difference is small in most cases.

[SlickNick]

Well my E6X only supports 6 drivers, so I'm only able to run sequential injection if the coils are set up in a waste spark configuration. (I'm also running a Mazda FS engine.) I'm not debating what is right or wrong here, but I couldn't justify the cost to go to the E8 just so I wouldn't need to run wasted spark. For the extra few hundred bucks, I could buy a LOT of spark plugs!

[SlickNick]

I realize this is a little late Brian, but here's basically what I did to set it up on the E6X, just in case you ever needed to know. I'll copy this on TMF as well.

Taken from P.42 of the manual:

4.2.4 Trigger Setup
Trigger Angle - °BTDC
This field defines the angle in °BTDC at which the ECU will be triggered. The ECU
uses this value to calculate the time for the next ignition so it is important that this
value is correct since it will affect the base ignition timing. This setting also appears in
the Ignition Set-up page for convenience.
Trigger Type
This field defines the trigger pattern the ECU will see coming from the crank or
camshaft angle sensors. The E6X currently supports the following trigger types:
Standard
Multi-tooth
Motronic
Subaru A (Up to MY00)
Twin Trigger
Daihatsu (extra tooth)
Nissan
Mazda (FS)
Subaru A (From MY00)
MGF

And taken from P.169 of the manual: (It explains the "Mazda A" (FS) preset)

E.6.7 Mazda A Triggers
Some factory-injected 4-cylinder Mazda and Ford engines use a unique trigger system similar
to that of the Subaru engines. This trigger system uses a combined crank-angle/cam-angle
trigger system. Select the Trigger type as “Mazda A” and connect the Cam angle sensor to
the Home Input and the Crank angle sensor to the Trigger Input. Both the Trigger and Home
Input should be set to Reluctor and the “Trigger angle” should be approximately 65±2°
BTDC. The fields “Tooth Offset” and “Number of Teeth” will not affect the operation of the
ECU in a standard Mazda set-up.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Merci

[BRIAN MP5T]

Wiring for Haltech Sport 1000/2000 ECU to a Mazda Protege (America) Astina Sport 20 (Australia) with FS Engine 2.0L

Throttle Position Sensor
TPS

Haltech Orange to Blue with Red Line on stock sensor harness wire
Haltech Black to Black on stock sensor harness wire
Haltech White to Green with Black Stripe on stock sensor harness wire

Remember to calibrate the sensor with the software.

Cam Position Sensor.
(HOME)
RELUCTOR.

Haltech Yellow to Green on stock sensor harness wire
Haltech Green to Grey on stock sensor harness wire


CRANK Position Sensor.
(TRIGGER)
RELUCTOR.

NOTE: There are only two wires that are used by the Haltech, The third is a Shield that goes to ground.

Haltech Yellow to Red on stock harness wire
Haltech Green to Green on stock harness wire

Here is reading on Reluctors
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm


RISING RATE Reluctor for Trigger with No GAIN, No Filter.
RISING RATE Reluctor for HOME with No GAIN, No Filter.

EDIT: and NOTE.

It is so cool, I had another sensor attached to the Haltech that was not attached to the car. I was able to fool it with a ferrous metal part (Ratchet Handle) to see the counter rise on the Laptop. As soon as the Haltech detects movement on the sensor it fires the fuel pump. If you only trigger it once, it fires the pump and shuts off, if you trigger it over and over, the pump stays on (Like it's supposed to, you guys are awesome!)

[BRIAN MP5T]

Alright Tech Staff, I have another question.

In preparation to start the engine for the first time, I wanted to verify that the Trigger and Home both work and give consistent readings.
The numbers worked out every time so I was happy.
I then noticed that the tachometer on the IQ3 goes BANANAS.
I then took a screen capture of the trace.

The White Line is the Tachometer
The Green is the Fuel Pressure
Red is just the TPS

Some of the other like the EGT are not connected yet so please disregard the 600 Deg EGT.
The WBO2 are also not connected.

I have read that a Reluctor becomes a better stronger signal the faster it works, so Cranking the engine should be the worst case scenario. Sub 400 Rpm (Please Correct me if I have bad information)

I did some math and on a 36-1 +1 Home the number of Triggers Vs the Number of Homes looks good every time. Obviously, if the ECU is dropping teeth on the 36-1 tooth wheel, it would probably not understand...

My Main concern is, Will this RPM spike create a problem, is is Normal, is it a sign of something that is very wrong.

I have played with the filter, 0 1 2 3. it changes it a bit, but there are still spikes in the Tachometer Signal.

My next plan is to confirm that the wire is shielded all the way to the sensor.

Any information or ideas would be helpful.

[HaltechScott]

Do a log of the trigger count at last home - Thats what you really want to see.
And yes, the reluctor signal is weaker at lower rpm. Around 0.25v up to anything like 100v!

[BRIAN MP5T]

So, this i not normal. The RPM should look all nice like between the spikes..?

Acton Plan.

I will verify the shielding on the last 10" of the wire.
I will verify that all the teeth are not bent.
I will log the counter as you suggest to make sure that all teeth are being read.

[BRIAN MP5T]

Teeth are not bent, Made sure the shielding was 100%

I added the Miss Counter and The Trigger between Home Counter.

The first try I got the same thing, I inverted to Falling and not rising (The opposite of how I have wired it, I checked three times) and got this which is exactly what I wanted to see.
(Note: The Oil Pressure is finally rising as well which is nice to see..)



I tried again after 1 min, and got some spikes with the same settings. Not many and they were after some cranking that would have probably started the car.

(Is it possible that a fresh and fully charged battery is just spinning the car faster and making a better signal the first time)

It's still much better and I have not gotten better results with the Filters.

Is there anything else I could try?

Claudio RX7 Suggested this..

Hey Brian, i had one suggestion for you to try, connect the 2 reluctor sensors using the yellow wire on each trigger bundle as positive as you normally would, but try using the negative blue wire instead of the green on both, see if that helps at all to get a stable rpm and trigger counter at last home reading.

I am worried that the Ground is not meant to receive AC Current, So I have not tried that and will not until I hear back from the staff..

Thanks in advance. Once I nail this down, I'm sure the Haltech will be exactly what I need.

[BRIAN MP5T]

So, I am still at it, I think it's fixed.

I went for the overkill solution on the wiring shielding where the Haltech wire meets the stock wire.

The Haltech wire has a cable wire core and foil around.
The Stock Mazda wire has a series of exposed wires that wrap around the two wires inside like a Co-Ax cable.

With some time I was able to totally isolate the center two connections in their own heatshrink.
Then as ghetto as it sounds, took foil and neatly wrapped the unshielded connection from ECU wire to Sensor making sure that both ends touched the original shielding.
Then with a 10" Piece of double walled heatshrink, I covered the entire thing. When heated the glue inside seals both ends.

The line is the RPM and honestly, I'm no tech, but I expect a starter cranking a motor through compression to bounce like that.. Correct me if I don't make sense..

Can you at Haltech let me know if the Trigger and Home numbers make sense for a 36-1 +Home?

[BRIAN MP5T]

It Lives!

I just got it to run (roughly) for about 47 seconds.

Full Sequential and Direct fire!

Waiting for the battery to charge up before I try again.