Step in VE map due to injector staging?

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mantrx7
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:45 pm

Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby mantrx7 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:49 pm

Hi all.

Thanks in advance for any help. Feeling a bit stuck (I'm no expert and Enjoying the learning part of all the tuning side)

The engine is a 13B rotary.
1000cc Primaries and 2000cc secondaries. (Very common for Rotary guys)
Fuel flex etc.
Haltech Elite 1500 (2.24)

The engine was dyno tunes by myself with some help and I complete the pump fuel tune. Was happy with the result but I know it needed more work.
I didn't have any issues with the secondary injectors staging. Feels overall smooth with a relatively smooth VE map - Only 13psi) Was good fun to drive!

Image

Um using the map in 4D and now running E85. I got back onto the dyno and the operator and I both saw a massive step in the VE map.
It was fairly clear it was where the secondary injectors were kicking in

(If holding statically in a single cell)
Just Primaries - would hold AFR =12
in that same cell with just a smidgen more so that the secondaries kick in, AFR's now 10

Image

I called it quits on the dyno. As I'm sure there is just a setting wrong. But after a few weeks of playing with:
Injector staging %'s
On stage Enrichment
On stage Duration.

I've realised I don't think its any of that.

As its, the massive step in the VE that I cant remove (Injectors staging % just moved the VE step line, And the Enrichments are such sort durations in the big picture, of why the step is happening). Must be something else that I'm missing.

So any help would be most appreciated.

(Map attached)
ANTHONY_20180312-132227.zip
(45.69 KiB) Downloaded 12 times


Regards
Anthony

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blakebonkofsky
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:58 am

Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby blakebonkofsky » Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:21 am

None of your pictures are loading. If you upload them directly to the post instead of linking them they should work.

Your staging enrichment is set to only 1 or 0 engine cycles, so that's definitely not affecting it, although you could zero out the percentages to be 100% sure.

Do you have any datalogs available? With so much going on at once, it's hard to pinpoint anything. Ethanol percentage, staging, different size injectors for each stage, etc.

I'd log AFR, injector pulse widths or at least duty cycles, ethanol percentage, etc along with the normal stuff like MAP, RPM, etc.

mantrx7
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:45 pm

Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby mantrx7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:12 pm

Blake.

Cheers. updated images. I linked them from google+ but it didn't like the link obviously.

This is the pump map. Relevily flat. Had no issues with injector staging. (But as pump fuel needs less quantity Im assuming the staging only happened in boost zones.
Anth pump fuel map.jpg


I expected the e85 to look similar (As the pumping effort VE of the engine should be similar to the pump map) but its going much higher and the I get this ridge with a sudden drop off which is trying to allow for where the secondary injectors kick in.
e85 map step.jpg


The data logs are fairly large, so I'll see if I can dropbox them.


This shot is fairly standard of the secondary transition in a similar VE cell.
VE semi steady. TPS steady. Im trying to hold it for a good 2 seconds (so much longer then what the onstage enrichments are to allow for etc) and it goes significantly rich. Very very noticeable on the street.
what it feels like statically holding..jpg

mantrx7
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:45 pm

Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby mantrx7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:15 pm

And then compared to this - This feels good on the street.
VE is now dropping off (probably needs to be even lower) and it allows for the secondaries that have kicked in.

But the big question I shouldn't be generating a ridge in my VE maps to compensate for the secondaries kicking in. Just feels and looks wrong.
Data log at secondaries with the VE dropping..jpg


Note: more than happy to scrap the 4D map etc to reduce the computers workload and other "functions / calulations in the background"
I had STFT off on this last run image. Just to ensure Im getting cleaner results.

mantrx7
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:45 pm

Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby mantrx7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:27 pm

https://www.dropbox.com/s/65yt7r82wfqpb ... 0.zip?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yb4p8kqkqvlx6 ... 0.zip?dl=0

(Data logs)
Not sure I have injector pulse width logged, unfortunately. There ID injectors.

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HaltechMatthew
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Location: Sydney, Australia
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Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby HaltechMatthew » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:14 pm

Injector flow and dead time data is out. The VE numbers indicate this in that the engine is not 150% efficient because no engine is, and especially not 90% efficient at idle because you will be lucky if you are half that efficient in reality. The staging will work as expected for any amount of fuel if the flow data is accurate.

The quick rundown: The VE modelling is there to show the amount of air entering the engine, and the ECU will send the amount of fuel needed to meet the Target Lambda you have prescribed. When the two do not match it is because the amount of fuel being injector is not correct through the injector flow data not being entered correctly, the amount of air is not correct.

Small errors are absorbed in the grand scheme of things, like if your dead times are off a small amount the VE curve just shifts a little but and you find the correct for ethanol is different as load changes. Same for single stage fuel errors where the VE can be off (like being 150%) and the engine will still run fine. But when you need to change the way fuel is delivered like adding an extra stage these errors cant really be absorbed in the VE table. The data needs to be accurate.

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blakebonkofsky
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:58 am

Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby blakebonkofsky » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:31 pm

mantrx7 wrote:Blake.

Cheers. updated images. I linked them from google+ but it didn't like the link obviously.

This is the pump map. Relevily flat. Had no issues with injector staging. (But as pump fuel needs less quantity Im assuming the staging only happened in boost zones.
Anth pump fuel map.jpg


I expected the e85 to look similar (As the pumping effort VE of the engine should be similar to the pump map) but its going much higher and the I get this ridge with a sudden drop off which is trying to allow for where the secondary injectors kick in.
e85 map step.jpg


The data logs are fairly large, so I'll see if I can dropbox them.


This shot is fairly standard of the secondary transition in a similar VE cell.
VE semi steady. TPS steady. Im trying to hold it for a good 2 seconds (so much longer then what the onstage enrichments are to allow for etc) and it goes significantly rich. Very very noticeable on the street.
what it feels like statically holding..jpg


I've not personally messed with a staged setup yet, but I'm keen to learn as much as I can as I'm about to dive head first into it with a friends car (two sets of 6000cc injectors on a 4cyl, methanol drag car).

That being said, the logs don't add up to your settings. The log shows 60% DC when the second stage activates, and it goes from 60 and 0 to 30 and 30 on each stage. But, your map is configured for 1000cc primaries with 2200cc secondaries. That would effectively get you:

60% of stage 1 = 600cc
0% of stage 2 = 0cc

to

30% of stage 1 = 300cc
30% of stage 2 = 660cc

I know the math isn't perfect, as dead times and such aren't accounted for, but either way, you have over 50% more fuel than required.

The second log you posted looks more correct, as it goes from 70% stage 1 to roughly 28% on each stage.

That quick math gives:
70% stage 1 = 700cc

27% stage 1 = 270cc
27% stage 2 = 594cc
total of 870cc

Still too much when the secondaries are engaged, but your wideband reflects this as well. Speaking of, is the wideband you're using capable of reading below 10:1? It looks like it hits that point pretty hard and stops on the second log...

mantrx7
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:45 pm

Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby mantrx7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:41 pm

Matt,

Appreciate the feedback.
I've copied the ID injector settings so I assumed I had this all correct. But I will pull my primary injectors (as i'm not 100% sure they are ID's) and check

Will keep the thread posted on any updates.

Anthony

mantrx7
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:45 pm

Re: Step in VE map due to injector staging?

Postby mantrx7 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:44 pm

yeap. Matt was spot on... Looks like my primaries are not 1000ID's :(
son of a biach.JPG


At least the secondaries are 2000 ID like I purchased.

I just bought some 1050xID's and will replace and re-run. Sucks But at least this is a easy fix and can be resolved. Once I get it up and running again I'll do an update.

Sure I wont be the first to get caught out like this.


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