VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

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Rmr298
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VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby Rmr298 » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:42 pm

Hi, what are the pros and cons of using TPS VS MAP sensing load? what about if you have a VE map which one would you choose and why?

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby Vipe84 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:07 am

Interesting topic Rmr298.
I will be hooking up a Sport2000 to a N/A V8 in the near future, and would also like to know what load sensing I should use.
I'm pretty sure the Haltech-guys have some great input on this topic :)
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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby HaltechScott » Tue Oct 26, 2010 2:57 pm

The load type depends on the type of engine .
For a car with no manifold pressure you would use TPS with Baro correction.
for a car with plenty of manifold pressure (turbo or not) you would use MAP based VE tuning.
For a Turbo car with no manifold pressure you would use VE based TPS tuning (MAP is compensated in the VE calculation)

Follow these examples and you will always get a good tune out of the engine,
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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby Rmr298 » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:11 pm

Can you give us a rough idea on the vaccum? For instance my car is turbo and idles at around 10-14

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby Vipe84 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:21 pm

HaltechScott wrote:The load type depends on the type of engine .
For a car with no manifold pressure you would use TPS with Baro correction.
for a car with plenty of manifold pressure (turbo or not) you would use MAP based VE tuning.
For a Turbo car with no manifold pressure you would use VE based TPS tuning (MAP is compensated in the VE calculation)

Follow these examples and you will always get a good tune out of the engine,

Thanks for your reply Scott, however i'm not 100% sure I get this right;

Example1 - NA-engine - Injection time - TPS-load w/MAP compensation
Example2 - Turbo - VE - MAP-load
Example3 - Turbo w/no manifold pressure -VE - TPS-load
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BRIAN MP5T
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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby BRIAN MP5T » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:39 pm

I personally think that using MAP as a load is just too easy.

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby fdahl_009 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:32 am

As far as I have understood - to get the VE to function correctly the dead times for the injectors have to be correctly setup.
How do I get these numbers? Are this something that you can e-mail the manufacturer and get?
I have seen some lists on the net, but not found any info on the type of injectors I currently have in my car.. Siemens Deka 80lbs/hr 14ohms.

I see the pros for the VE tuning when it comes to installing new injectors and so on, but are there any behind the scene calculations that will not be in effect when using injection timing? I know the VE part of the calculation is gone, but are there like any air temp or coolant temp corrections or so going on other than the correction tables I can enable?

I am about to install an Sport 2000 in my car, and so far I have looked at the injection timing setup as the easiest to get right since I do not know the dead times, so I can set the injection time directly. But I guess it would have an effect on things if the voltage for the system were to change, the afr readings would then be altered. Hard to say how much maybe since this would be effected by the injectors characteristics, capacity, sequential setup or not and so on..?

Also, how important is the capacity of the engine in the calculations? 50cc +/- error, would that effect anything enough to make it hard to tune?

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby BRIAN MP5T » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:26 am

If I was going to not have access to a base map (If I was doing it again) and I wanted to get my car running quickly, I would Select VR..

I tunes on Inj Time and now that I have done it, I look at VR tuning a bit as something that has too many variables than need to be tuned to get a perfect running engine..

I look at Inj Time like this... I believe that there are fewer things to have issues with in Inj Time.

I literally got my car to run and up to temp, then started tuning, once the car was cold the next day, I started tuning the Cold Maps and Post start Maps.

Once all this was done and I was confident with the base map. I activated O2 Control. Every once in a while I will turn off O2 Control and Log a Drive, just to see if I can make the map better..

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby fdahl_009 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:43 am

Well, that is exactly what I was thinking too.

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby LMS_689 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:56 am

fdahl_009 wrote:As far as I have understood - to get the VE to function correctly the dead times for the injectors have to be correctly setup.
How do I get these numbers? Are this something that you can e-mail the manufacturer and get?
I have seen some lists on the net, but not found any info on the type of injectors I currently have in my car.. Siemens Deka 80lbs/hr 14ohms.

I see the pros for the VE tuning when it comes to installing new injectors and so on, but are there any behind the scene calculations that will not be in effect when using injection timing? I know the VE part of the calculation is gone, but are there like any air temp or coolant temp corrections or so going on other than the correction tables I can enable?

I am about to install an Sport 2000 in my car, and so far I have looked at the injection timing setup as the easiest to get right since I do not know the dead times, so I can set the injection time directly. But I guess it would have an effect on things if the voltage for the system were to change, the afr readings would then be altered. Hard to say how much maybe since this would be effected by the injectors characteristics, capacity, sequential setup or not and so on..?

Also, how important is the capacity of the engine in the calculations? 50cc +/- error, would that effect anything enough to make it hard to tune?



You will want the dead times correct, or very close, regardless of which form of tuning you use. The dead time table is simply a voltage compensation. As voltage changes, the characteristics of the injector change the fuel delivery. Some injectors more than others. The dead time table allows one to set up consistent flow regardless of battery voltage. There are injector dead times posted in different places for a variety of injectors that will usually help you get real close. From there it's pretty simple to sit in the car and turn things on and off to vary the voltage and play with the dead time values until you get it right. Don't read too much into it and make it harder than it is. If things are good at 13.5v and then the AC kicks on at idle and drops the voltage to 12 and it leans out, you know you need to go into the dead time table and add some offset to add some fuel.

I usually prefer injection time to VE. I think it comes down to personal preference. In most cases, one is not better than the other. In the case of entering values for VE tuning (ie: displacement, injector size, etc.), you can be off by decent margin without issue. What will happen is the VE table will be skewed one way or the other. If you tell the ECU the engine is smaller than it is, the VE table will end up showing numbers that are larger than the actual values. Does that effect the tune, not really; they're just numbers. Again, don't make it harder than it needs to be.

All of the correction tables are user selectable. You will want to run air temp and coolant temp fuel correction at a minimum. Those tables are ones that you will need to tune. Air temp is a mathematical constant, in theory, for all engines, but you will generally end up tweaking it a little. Coolant temp is easy enough; just give the engine enough fuel to run well when it's cold until it gets up to operating temp. Once it's warm the correction should be zero.

What is the platform you'll be working with? Chances are someone may be able to offer a base map to get you in the ballpark very quickly.
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fdahl_009
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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby fdahl_009 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:51 am

Thanks for your input.

I have an custom configured Alfa V6 Turbo engine, so no base maps available here.

But I know the ignition and AFRs needed at the different loads and rpms since I have had several engine management systems installed, from an Autronic SM4 to the now installed and running Megasquirt setup.
It is interesting to learn and find out what the real differences between all these systems are, both in setup, installation and the feeling of the running engine as well as how it is to drive. So now I want to try the PS2000 in full sequential mode with direct fire..

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby BRIAN MP5T » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:24 pm

fdahl_009 wrote:So now I want to try the PS2000 in full sequential mode with direct fire..


If that is the case I would suggest Injection Time. Because of sequential injection, the fuel map is almost a 2D Map. As RPM goes up, the fuel rate will naturally be very close to the same level for all RPM levels at that particular load.

I was totally surprised how simple it was to get the engine to behave about 95% Tuned in a very short time, the funny thing is that it has been two years, and I still find myself tweaking the MAP every so often.

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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby Mitsiman » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:34 pm

I seem to be the opposite of everyone else. It took me a long time to go away from direct injection values and convert to VE. Now that I have i could never understand anyone wanting to go back to the old method.

Its really quite simple to setup the injector lag times, and they are probably not as crucial as most people thing they are, you don't need to be super super accurate with them. As long as you are within (I am estimating) .5v I really don't think it matters. In most cases, honestly, I just use the haltech default values and of all teh cars I have done so far, not had any issues at all.

I find it quicker and easier to tune, and I definitly get much better fuel curves for sure.

As for load referencing, MAP sensor every time whenever possible. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I can never see that any vehicle tuned with TPS as load source, will ever perform better or be as smooth / comfortable or consistant to drive as a vehicle tuned via MAP load. (Granted exceptions are those with multiple throttle bodies or very large camshafts), but with the zero throttle maps on fuel and ignition available with great detail now, even those vehicles with massive cams / low vacuem should be able to still be tuned via MAP to some degree?

Of course thats just my opinion :)
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Re: VE TPS VS MAP sensing load pro and cons

Postby LOW11Z » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

i have been tuning haltech systems for about 10 years since i got at the time the latest system out the E6K, since then i have tuned in injection time as thats all the old systems had and ive since done a few platinums in injection time untill i spoke to Scott from haltech and he ranme through the VE setup and i tried it on my last job. It was a sprint 500 on a Holden V8 with a custom turbo setup, running semi sequential injection. i input all the correct data in the right boxes like dead time, capacity and engine volume and with the default VE table the car fired up and i drove it straight on the dyno. within an hour the car was 95 percent tuned. the default VE is remarkable how close it is with the correct data input. after this one im sold and will be reluctant to go back to inj time mapping.


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