Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

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rcdash
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Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:39 am

Well, occasionally it will get up to 1% but that's it. This parameter is dead. Can an engineer or developer please try to get a log (cannot upload on this forum) and figure out what's wrong.

This forum doesn't seem to have much in-house support. :(

Thanks for any feedback if it happens to come though.

rcdash
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:23 am

** NOTICE the AFR spike thanks to poor transient fueling response:

Image

The data log above shows basically a flat line for TT-delta load. It also shows how insensitive DELTA LOAD is to changes in throttle. No wonder it's difficult to dial in transient response. Haltech - help!

TrackPack
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby TrackPack » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:42 pm

Hey RC, I'm also having terrible transient response, especially during quick/hard shifts which lead to shift knock on occasion :|
...and thanks for being the voice for the self tuned haltech Z/G's, I see you commenting all the time on my350z on the software.

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BRIAN MP5T
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby BRIAN MP5T » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:10 pm

Mine works most of the time. but I agree that it has to be Re-Engendered or modified it is not an easy thing to tune and it is a critical part of the software..

rcdash
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Tue Jul 07, 2009 3:26 am

TrackPack, if you can generate 5 ms data logs it will help provide data needed for a fix. Send them to [email protected].

These are the parameters I usually log:

O2 calibration (for wideband readings)
Load
RPM
TPS %
Delta Load
TT- Delta Load
TT- Percentage Enrichment
TT- Enrichment sensitivity
(you may also wish to add one of the knock parameters; raw and/or knock level)

If I come up with a map that works reasonably well given the current limitations, I will post up. As it stands, there is enough delta load jitter that you have to ignore anything less than 0.5 for that parameter (so percentage enrichment is 0), then it needs to ramp up quickly from 0 to 100% between just 0.5 and 2.5 (the max value I've seen for Delta Load). Getting the shape of that curve right is difficult at best. I go from gross over-fueling to AFR spikes with very small changes. :(

MR RIZK
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby MR RIZK » Tue Jul 07, 2009 10:43 pm

TrackPack wrote:Hey RC, I'm also having terrible transient response, especially during quick/hard shifts which lead to shift knock on occasion :|
...and thanks for being the voice for the self tuned haltech Z/G's, I see you commenting all the time on my350z on the software.


I have been complaining about shift knock on my Z for ages. Normally between 2nd->3rd shift about 30% of the time on hard shifts. Wonder if the above is relevant to me. Got to a point where I had to pull large amount of timing to get rid of it. Happy to provide my maps for comparison if required.

rcdash
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Tue Jul 07, 2009 11:16 pm

It could well be. I wondered if the sudden decel with spike in AFR could be mistaken as shift knock, but now with two of you reporting the same findings, I begin to wonder. I have a 5AT so thankfully I don't have to deal with that issue as I stay full throttle between shifts. :)

If you have data logs, please send to Hal with the parameters listed above along with the map used to generate that log. Hal has been really busy but hopefully he'll get a chance to analyze the data and work with Haltech on a solution soon. Also please make sure you are on the 1.04 firmware and ECU manager software. It is available at http://www.injectedperformance.com/haltech.

In the interim, I'm working on a transient throttle map that uses the base fuel table as an axis for enrichment sensitivity rather than the default RPM (vs TT-Load %). This allow much more appropriate fueling based on current load. I'm testing this week and will post up results by the weekend. It would be much easier if the Delta Load parameter more accurately/precisely reflected the magnitude of change during transient throttle events.

MR RIZK
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby MR RIZK » Wed Jul 08, 2009 2:41 pm

I would need to load one of my old maps to get back to the point where it knocks. I assume that is what you are after.

I'm currently running 1.0 Beta 13. I cannot upgrade to 1.4 becuase my WB is currently wired into the POS connector that is supposed to be used for the external MAP sensor. They changed the code for me. I will need to re-wire my WB before I can upgrade since this includes a firmware upgrade. I have asked for the info from Haltech but will need to chase as I have no had a response.

Michael

rcdash
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Thu Jul 09, 2009 3:34 am

There might be a version of the ECU manager that you can get that lets you reassign inputs so you don't have to do any rewiring. I don't think code changes are required for this as the Sport series has this functionality built in. You just need the access. And you don't need to go back to a map that knocks. The fact is that you're using timing to compensate for AFR spikes on shifts. Those AFR spikes should still be visible on high resolution data logs.

rcdash
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:10 pm

I'm also seeing some funny values for the injection times. Is injector dead time being added to the async pulses? That would make sense I suppose. The pulses seem to last 1/2 second or so in the log. Is that correct for an async pulse? I would've expected a single pulse (spike) for the injectors to fire. How many transient throttle events can occur per second. Suppose there is a throttle change from 10% to 50% over a 1 second period: how many pulses would fire?

rcdash
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:24 pm

Here is another snapshot that shows a rise in throttle (in white), but only delta load jitter (pink), and no transient fuel response, resulting in an AFR spike (yellow). What to do?

Image

MR RIZK
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby MR RIZK » Fri Jul 10, 2009 9:24 am

I will see if I can get some logs this weekend with the above monitored values. At least you can compare with the older version of the software if it is the same.

I understand that you are chasing this with Haltech but have they confirmed the issue or at least investigating your findings?

rcdash
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby rcdash » Fri Jul 10, 2009 2:07 pm

Eric at Haltech USA responded right away and forwarded this thread to Haltech engineers. I have referenced this thread in an e-mail to Haltech senior management. Hal is on vacation this week and he was out winning a blue ribbon last week, so I haven't been able to benefit from his wisdom yet. I'm doing my best to provide some useful data. Now it's up to Haltech. I'm trying to be patient and see if they come through... (fingers crossed!)

I have played around with a couple different ways of tuning "enrichment sensitivity" and "percent enrichment". The trouble is that I don't know what the Haltech is actually doing to detect transient throttle events. Some basic information on the algorithm employed would be very helpful. Waiting (patiently)...

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BRIAN MP5T
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby BRIAN MP5T » Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:21 am

Also waiting for information..

It is not as reliable as I need it to be.

More detailed information on how the unit is actually working would help me in being able to at least change the correct settings rather than trial and error.

HaltechMatt
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Re: Transient Throttle Delta Load - stuck at 0.6% !!!

Postby HaltechMatt » Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:14 pm

Hi guys - I will make two posts here, the first post i hope to address some of these issues directly - the second post i will simply copy and paste the setup information that has been written in the latest version of the online manual (will be released in 1.05 software).

two seperate issues have been raised here, the first one is in regards to what i will refer to as throttle pump enrichment, the second is in relation to shift knock - lets first look at the throttle pump enrichment as thats what this post was originally about.

Its clear from the logs supplies that the reason your seeing that lean hump is because there is no throttle enrichment occuring, as you correctly stated this is because the delta load value gives nothing but jitter. Delta load has been defined in the ECU as percentage of throttle movement over a 10ms period, so in the second log where we see this most clearly the throttle has moved about 5% over 300ms (or there abouts) - giving an average delta load of 0.16%, this is lower than the 0.5% deadband you have and therefore ignored. So to directly answer the question on how haltech determines delta load - "its the percentage movement in throttle over a 10ms time period"

To answer the question of injector dead time on async throttle pulses, simply put yes the injector dead time is added to the legnth of each async injection event (async pulses are additional injector pulses meaning the main injection pulse ends (base value plus any additional synchronous enrichment) then the injector is opened a second time for the legnth of the async pulse, therefore dead time MUST be added to each async pulse).

Shift knock is an interesting thing in itself, there are multiple theories as to the how and why's of its occurance - im just going to give my 2c on this one but im willing to be proved wrong - im talking only from the conclusions i have come to from what i have seen so take it with only a grain of salt !

Most occurances of shift knock is actually related not to a lean mixture but rather a rich mixture, when the throttle is abruptly closed the airflow slows faster than the fuel flow does (inertia at play here), within the cumbustion chamber the richer mixture burns faster than a lean mixture resulting leading to a detonation event occuring. You can see the same thing occur if your tuning light loads, the onset of knock occurs earlier at a richer mixture than lean mixtures. Problem is most people try to fix shift knock with more fuel only compounding the problem until the mixture is so rich your bordering in a rich misfire....The solution either lean out the mixture or retard the timing (OEM do both to significant degrees).


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